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Friday August 02, 1996

From: Joe Solem <JoeSolem@AOL.COM>
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 02:46:19 -0400
Subject: Re: PPP, ISPs and PIC-1000

>The beauty of the Magic Cap implementation of TCP/IP is that you don't have
>to understand a single word I am writing here. It just works.
>
>Greg Satz

Well, I don't and I hope it does!

Joe Solem

From: Greg Satz <satz@CISCO.COM>
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 23:47:30 -0700
Subject: Re: PPP, ISPs and PIC-1000

Poster:       Andy Belk 
> The modem connection is almost always ok - we do have occasional problems
> with busy lines and timeouts, but I do on my Mac as well, so this is probably
> unrelated.

Modems that connect but hang can appear like failed PPP connections.

> This is it. Either the PPP negotiation falls over and I get "There was a
> communications problem ..." or sometimes I get "mail.best.com has no DNS
> entry" which is patently false ;-). I'll have to talk to my ISP in person but
> they don't seem too amenable ... here's the latest response:

It is clear that your communicator is not getting responses to packets it
is sending. However it cannot be determined whether it is the modems not
passing the data or PPP. Without some physical line trace of the data or
some debugging info from the device that answers the modem, we can only
guess.

> Unfortunately, this is simply a problem with the overhead involved in doing
> a PPP connection.  PPP pushes so much information over the line simply to
> keep the connection active that 2400 baud is not fast enough to handle it.
> Dialling in to a slower POP would unfortunately make no difference.

Poppycock. The largest frame Presto! sends is 1500 bytes. Let's say you are
only sending 1500 byte frames because you are transferring a large file,
which is *not* the case when you are establishing the connection. We need
to add 8 more bytes for the PPP information so that makes 1508 bytes. At
2400 baud it would take about 5.5 seconds to transmit a single 1508 byte
frame. So Best's claim is that they have configured PPP echos or keepalives
to be less then 5 seconds. This is 12 times a minute. Even at this rate
they shouldn't disconnect you or refuse you service for one timeout
period. It should be at least two or better yet three timeout periods.

Ask them how they determine "too much information". Determine how they kill
off idle users. They may do this to free up phone lines for other
customers but it shouldn't bother you if you are transferring data.

PPP overhead is roughly 8-10 bytes per IP packet. At 2400 baud it is 37.5
milliseconds or 3 one hundredths of a second, less then one second.

Greg Satz

From: Mike Lombrozo <lombroma@MAIL.FIA.NET>
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 22:13:33 -0700
Subject: Re: Presto!Mail Presto!Links

I've been running PL & PM on 2 PIC2000s without any problems.  My wife uses
her ML to surf the web about 2 hours a day because it's easier to use than
Netscape.  We both download about 50 messages a day from a POP server
without problems.  We've both got a 2MB SRAM card and we put new items on
the card.

Mike

----------
From:   AJ Wright[SMTP:aj@GS1.CINTI.NET]
Sent:   Wednesday, July 31, 1996 3:21 PM
To:     Multiple recipients of list MAGICCAP
Subject:        Presto!Mail Presto!Links

>ALSO, I've been seing alot of people having problems with Presto
>LINKS and MAIl and was woundering if those are valid,,, one of the biggest
>reasons that I bought the PIC's is that they can do Internet and E-mail

Yes, mine is QUITE valid. They (General Magic) were able to duplicate the
problem I have on my PIC1000 (1 meg Sony SRAM card) with the Presto
package. They said they'd get back to me when they had a "fix" but
haven't heard from them again.
You may have better luck running it on a 2000.


AJ
^ ^
 ~

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
He who chatters with you will chatter of you.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@




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From: Stephen Wolfson <wolfsons@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Date:          Fri, 2 Aug 1996 07:10:42 -0700

Subject: PLink Software complexity?


How complicated is plink software on the server side?
It seems possible that interested ISPs and businesses could support
a PLINK dial in and we could all exchange Telescript mail with each
other
ala usenet.  From the surface it seems like the only tricky part would
be maintaining directory services.  We could use the old AT&T building
and
just change the access number.

-- Steve





From: OPC_office <A5043644623@ATTPLS.NET>

Date:          Fri, 2 Aug 1996 14:43:59 +0000

Subject: AC Adaptor


<>


This has happened to the adapters on every one of my Links. Whether
they acknowledge it or not, SONY does have a design problem. Push them
hard to replace at no charge.





From: Mike Lombrozo <lombroma@MAIL.FIA.NET>

Date:          Fri, 2 Aug 1996 07:39:45 -0700

Subject: Re: Hello from Japan


Predrag

I've run ML in the construction mode most of the time to be able to get to
the extra tools in the tool cup.  It also give some additional stamps.  No
problems after 9 months.  Also, touching the screen doesn't do anything
when the ML is busy (rotating hat)  About half the time whatever area you
touched will execute after the rotating hat goes away.  This has caused
some problems for me, but no more than clicking the mouse in the wrong spot
in Windows.

Mike

----------
From:   Predrag Minovic[SMTP:minovic@IM.ISL.SECOM.CO.JP]
Sent:   Thursday, August 01, 1996 1:25 AM
To:     Multiple recipients of list MAGICCAP
Subject:        Hello from Japan
        Finally, among some ML users here there are the following
superstitions:
1) Don't run ML with the construction mode switched on,
2) Don't touch the screen while the magic hat is rotating (ML busy)
        I'm actually doing (1) from time to time, I never tried (2). Can
somebody comment on this please.

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`
end





From: "D'angelo, Leo" <LEO.D'ANGELO@FMR.COM>

Date:          Fri, 2 Aug 1996 11:19:00 -0400

Subject: Re: Presto!Mail Presto!Links


Mike,

Glad to hear someone speak highly of PL & PM for a change. I too have
used it
with great success for about 2 months. I had nooo problem setting it up
to talk
to my ISP (world.std.com) who by the way has an on-ramp from MSN (so I
can
access local numbers in town and MSN POP's from out of town). I wish
some
of the folks on this list would remember that a couple months ago none
of this
internet connectivity was possible at all. It is the first rev of a
product and I would
expect there to be some difficulties. All in all I think the PL & PM
software is great.
Good job guys.  BTW) I think some of the people on this list have lost
sight of the
fact that this is a PIC not a laptop/PC there is a BIG difference.

 -LeoD
Happy as a clam with my ML.

 ----------
From: Magic Cap Discussion List
To: A200749
Subject: Re: Presto!Mail Presto!Links
Date: Friday, August 02, 1996 7:33AM

<>

I've been running PL & PM on 2 PIC2000s without any problems.  My wife
uses
her ML to surf the web about 2 hours a day because it's easier to use
than
Netscape.  We both download about 50 messages a day from a POP server
without problems.  We've both got a 2MB SRAM card and we put new items
on
the card.

Mike

 ----------
From:   AJ Wright[SMTP:aj@GS1.CINTI.NET]
Sent:   Wednesday, July 31, 1996 3:21 PM
To:     Multiple recipients of list MAGICCAP
Subject:        Presto!Mail Presto!Links

>ALSO, I've been seing alot of people having problems with Presto
>LINKS and MAIl and was woundering if those are valid,,, one of the biggest
>reasons that I bought the PIC's is that they can do Internet and E-mail

Yes, mine is QUITE valid. They (General Magic) were able to duplicate
the
problem I have on my PIC1000 (1 meg Sony SRAM card) with the Presto
package. They said they'd get back to me when they had a "fix" but
haven't heard from them again.
You may have better luck running it on a 2000.


AJ
^ ^
 ~

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
He who chatters with you will chatter of you.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@




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From: Wayne Sanderson <whsander@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Date:          Fri, 2 Aug 1996 08:50:51 -0700

Subject: got free XChange


Wonder of wonders. I just got my free Magic XChange from Sony. I guess I won't
be joining the class action lawsuit after all. I wonder how fast they are
filling the back orders. Any body else get one recently?





From: Manuel Veloso <veloso@APIX.COM>

Date:          Fri, 2 Aug 1996 10:47:15 -0500

Subject: Re: PPP, ISPs and PIC-1000


>So Best's claim is that they have configured PPP echos or keepalives
>to be less then 5 seconds. This is 12 times a minute. Even at this rate
>they shouldn't disconnect you or refuse you service for one timeout
>period. It should be at least two or better yet three timeout periods.

Hmmm. It could be that best's keepalives, if they're too aggressive, might
be timing out at 2400 baud. Unfortunately, the only way to see what's going
on is to start logging, either on the device (or simulator) or on Best.


-----------------------------------------
Manny Veloso          Digital Plumber
Active Paper, Inc.    http://www.apix.com
-----------------------------------------
"O.K., I'll get connected! Just don't hurt me."





From: Steve Cooley <Stevec@POBOX.COM>

Date:          Thu, 1 Aug 1996 10:13:57 +0000

Subject: Re: got free XChange


Hey, all, let's hear it for Gen Magic and AT&T... they must feel biiiig
pressure, and they're slowly but surely making good on their promises.
Bravo, keep up the good work, and please don't go out of business.

And when can we expect a backlit color touchscreen? (asked only in
half-jest)





From: MCW Online <mcwonline@genmagic.com>

Date:          Fri, 2 Aug 1996 10:15:44 -0700

Subject: Re: PLink Software complexity?


Hi Steve,

If you are using PrestoMail/PrestoLinks you will still have many of the
features familiar to PersonaLink. Rich Text messaging, coupons, and graphics
will still be sendable to other PrestoMail users.

The primary functions you will lose with the demise of PersonaLink is
mailbox Summary, Directory Look-up and PLink specific mail rules.

Hope this clears up your questions,

Joel
MC Support

At 07:10 AM 8/2/96 -0700, Stephen Wolfson wrote:
>How complicated is plink software on the server side?
>It seems possible that interested ISPs and businesses could support
>a PLINK dial in and we could all exchange Telescript mail with each
>other
>ala usenet.  From the surface it seems like the only tricky part would
>be maintaining directory services.  We could use the old AT&T building
>and
>just change the access number.
>
>-- Steve
>

++++++++++++++++++++++
Joel Connors
Magic Cap Support
General Magic
Email at: mcwonline@genmagic.com





From: brenda holloway <brendah@MBAY.NET>

Date:          Fri, 2 Aug 1996 10:30:35 -0700

Subject: Re: Downloads for Magic Cap


>Date:    Thu, 1 Aug 1996 10:08:41 -0400
>From:    John Mignault 
>Subject: Re: Downloads for Magic Cap
>
>On a related note, brenda, have you been thinking of updating the developer
>articles to reflect the changes in the toolsets? (CW IDE etc?)

No, not really... I'm usually just doing well to work on the next article &
program. I hardly ever have the time to fix up the old stuff!

I'm glad you liked the page. I hope to support Presto!Links soon.

brenda

---
Brenda Holloway (brendah@mbay.net)   deeds cannot dream what dreams can do
Sony New Technologies, Monterey CA   -time is a tree (this life one leaf)
http://www.sonysoft.com/brenda/      but love is the sky and i am for you
http://www.mbay.net/~brendah/        just so long and long enough





From: Steve Knox <fortknox@DRIFTWOOD.COM>

Date:          Fri, 2 Aug 1996 10:15:14 -0700

Subject: Re: PLink Software complexity?


Stephen Wolfson wrote:
>
> How complicated is plink software on the server side?
> It seems possible that interested ISPs and businesses could support
> a PLINK dial in and we could all exchange Telescript mail with each other
> ala usenet.  From the surface it seems like the only tricky part would
> be maintaining directory services.  We could use the old AT&T building
> and just change the access number.

A couple of issues here.  The PLink service is based on a product from
General Magic known as MagicMail.  MagicMail has a specification (for
compliance) and a reference implementation.  It is not difficult at all
to get the reference implementation up and running, it is contained in the
old TDK (Telescript Developers Kit). However, I don't know if General
Magic has plans to market and support the product to the general public.
It was designed to be sold to large organizations willing to customize
it and create large installations (i.e. competitors to Compuserve, AOL,
etc).

In addition, the reference implementation is short in many areas of what
would be required for a production service.  Much of the OAM (Operations
And Management) that is needed for a large installation is up to the
operator to do.  Again, there is a reference implementation for some of
the stuff but I haven't looked into how much.  Finally the reference
implementation doesn't really scale up in some areas.  For example, AT&T
used an external Database to store AddressCards for the Directory service
where as the reference implementation uses a simple Dictionary which has
upper limits on size due to performance.

Creating and maintaining a MagicMail service at this time is a fairly
costly endeavour for even a few thousand customers.  It _may_ be
reasonable to implement a service for less than 1000 customers using
the reference implementation but I'm not sure of this and again I don't
know is Magic will license the product for such a service.  Even in
such a case the hardware requirements for the MagicMail engine are
moderately high because for each MM customer you need at least 2 running
Unix processes at ALL times.  The users Outpost and the users MagicMailBox
within the Outpost.  In addition, there are several dozen processes
within the service and any number of MailCollector and StdCourier agents
running around.  I would estimate the need to support concurrent processes
of 2.5 times customers.  While most processes are inactive and hence
faulted to disk you still have to have a LOT of memory and swap disk
area for reasonable performance.

Given the push in the U.S. especially but also internationally
for open standards based communications I think it would be nearly
impossible to set up a service based on the _current_ MagicMail
implementation in the U.S. and make money.  MagicCap communicators are
moving towards Internet standards compliance for message encoding (MIME)
but the current systems (MC 1.0 and MC 1.5) use a proprietary scheme
known as ICF.  MagicMail uses the ICF encoding on the server side and
hence would have to change over to MIME compliance.  While not impossible
I don't know if General Magic is doing it and if not, who will do it,
when it would be done, how much it might cost, what the cost would be
to a provider who setup a server based on the current stuff and then
had to migrate, etc.

I personally think the MagicMail framework has incredible potential as
a next generation messaging backbone but it needs substantial work to
migrate from its current implementation to one more fully integrated
with open, Internet standards.  Unfortunately, users seem to think that
SMTP and POP are plenty good enough. For basic email, these well tested,
simple and effective protocols are completely adequate.  The market,
the media and the investment community all have a very difficult time
looking far enough ahead to allow a new technology such as agent based
messaging to go thru the early stages of life without getting hatcheted.
And General Magic didn't help much by chosing to do things in a
proprietary fashion, especially the ICF encoding instead of MIME.
I'm sure there were good technical reasons but trying to create a new
standard that affects client platforms is just too hard because they
are simply too diverse and there are too many to force new standards.

Sorry for the downer :)  If I (read my company) had the money, I'd
love to put up a Magic Mail service and work with General Magic to
upgrade the MM framework to internet standards compatible (like MIME
encoding, access into the MM cloud via POP3 and IMAP with
authentication and of course performance improvements.

Alas, we are poor, with hardly enough money to develop our personalized
delivery service framework for use in the Tabriz Agentware environment.

        Steve

--
Steve Knox                               (206) 775-6495
fortknox@driftwood.com           Driftwood Systems, Inc





From: Wayne Sanderson <whsander@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Date:          Fri, 2 Aug 1996 10:53:27 -0700

Subject: Re: got free XChange


Dear Steve and Magic,
Actually, the freebie MXChange was promised by Sony, the least likely of them
all to go out of business. This gives me some hope that the coupon orders will
be filled in some semblance of timeliness.





From: Charlie F <A5123644606@ATTPLS.NET>

Date:          Fri, 2 Aug 1996 19:19:22 +0000

Subject: Re: PLink Software complexity?


Dear Magic,
Magic Cap Discussion List writes:
> The primary functions you will lose with the
> demise of PersonaLink is mailbox Summary,
> Directory Look-up and PLink specific mail rules.


You are missing a MAJOR point.


Unlimited service     PLS $9.95            Inet $19.95
800 service               PLS  included       Inet$4.95 hour

Looks like it is going to TRIPLE my communications charges.

Memory require        PLS  included         Presto M,L  500k

If I was to go out and buy a SONY ram card  yet ANOTHER $150.

Yea, I know, with this set up I can surf the web.  I didn't by there
devices to surf the web, I bought them  (YES, I own more than one!!)
for low cost communications.  Before anyone says most cities have local
numbers, can you call from say MURDOCK KANSAS for free?  Well I could
with ATTPLS.


--------------------------
            From the desk of Charlie F...





From: Jacques1 <A5523644633@ATTPLS.NET>

Date:          Fri, 2 Aug 1996 19:55:56 +0000

Subject: Re: PLink Software complexity?


Dear Magic,
I agree with Charlie on this one. I loved the unmetered email from an
toll free number it was great. However I really think that pic1000
users are getting the shaft. I wish that $150 included a sram card too.
I really hope that one of the baby bells picks up pls and runs with it.
How proprietary is a service whose 800 number can be shared? I think
that really sucks, like stabbing us in the back or more like ramming
our pens through our screens.

Gordon


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From: Eric Carter <ecarter@REMEDY.COM>

Date:          Fri, 2 Aug 1996 14:38:06 -0700

Subject: Re: The Coupon


Greg, how do you get a new password each time?  And how do you know which
password to enter?



On Aug 1,  1:26pm, Greg Satz wrote:
> Subject: Re: The Coupon
> Poster:       "Rishi R. Oswal" 
> > what I do is simply enter my password in my wordlist. Then all I do is
enter
> > first 2 letters of my password and touch expand. I am surprised not that
many
> > people use expand key. It saves a heck of a lot of typing for me!
>
> My password is different each time.
>
> Greg Satz
>-- End of excerpt from Greg Satz




--
Epc
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Republicans understand the importance of bondage between
a mother and child."
                         -- Vice President Dan Quayle
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From: "Joel Apisdorf (CTR)" <apisdorf@MCI.NET>

Date:          Fri, 2 Aug 1996 20:09:22 -0400

Subject: Re: The Coupon


Eric Carter  wished to know how Greg Satz
can type a new password each time.

I bet he has a SecurID card.  It is shaped just like those credit-card
sized calculators, except it has no pushbuttons.  Every minute a new
6-digit number comes up on the LCD screen.  When you are asked for a
password, you type a text string, then whatever digits are displayed.

It is actually overkill for CHAP to encrypt the SecurID number since
anyone who intercepted it would only have one minute to pose as you.

The modem you are logging into talks to a centralized server which
knows how to predict what 6-digit number your card will display at
any time, given the original seed for the card.  The seed is not printed
on the card, but a serial number is, and it can look up one from the other.
The seeds for each serial number were given to your security dept. when
they bought the cards.

hope this helps





From: Dave Bushong <A5763644634@ATTPLS.NET>

Date:          Sat, 3 Aug 1996 01:54:59 +0000

Subject: Anyone in Phoenix area?


Hi Magic Cap list,

Is there anyone in the Phoenix that could let me download something to
my Magic Link using your cable?  My cable is on a UPS truck somewhere
and I'm leaving the country Sunday.  If I could get this software
loaded before I go, it would really help.

If you can help, contact me - thanks!

Dave

bushong@attpls.net





From: Wayne Sanderson <whsander@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Date:          Fri, 2 Aug 1996 20:21:03 -0700

Subject: link to link


Has anyone ever cabled 2 communicators together with the Magic XChange cables
with a double male DB-9 connector in between? What would happen if you did
this and touched the computer link icons in the storeroom? Could you send
packages back and forth this way? I'm pretty sure you can talk back and forth
this way with Cujoterm or the Magic Connection emulator.





From: Michael Roeser <A5513644696@ATTPLS.NET>

Date:          Sat, 3 Aug 1996 05:36:25 +0000

Subject: Netcom questions


I've been using Netcom (and Presto!Mail/Links on a PIC-2000) recently
with hopes to use it as my replacement for Plink after the end of the
month.  I've been having two problems which are troublesome to me.

 1) I get about 50 to 100 e-mail messages a day, and I'm never able to
download all of them in one shot without getting a 'communication has
stopped' message at some point (usually after ~20 msgs). When using
Links, I invariably get a "modem has unexpectedly hung up.  Check your
cables." Has anyone else run into this?

2) I've been getting busy numbers sometimes, and would love it if
Presto would "camp" on the line, redialing until a connection is made.
Anyway to do this now, or is this a wish list item?

One thing I've liked about Plink is the reliability when downloading
e-mail, and  the lack of busy signals.  Is it Netcom, or can I adjust a
setting somewhere?

Mike





 




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